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Anthropic, OpenAI, and DeepMind have now all released policies designed to make their AI models less likely to go rogue or cause catastrophic damage as they approach, and eventually exceed, human capabilities. Are they good enough? That's what host Rob Wiblin tries to hash out in this interview (recorded May 30) with Nick Joseph — one of the 11 people who left OpenAI to launch Anthropic, its current head of training, and a big fan of Anthropic's "responsible scaling policy" (or "RSP"). Anthropic is the most safety focused of the AI companies, known for a culture that treats the risks of its work as deadly serious. As Nick explains, these scaling policies commit companies to dig into what new dangerous things a model can do — after it's trained, but before it's in wide use. The companies then promise to put in place safeguards they think are sufficient to tackle those capabilities before availability is extended further. For instance, if a model could significantly help design a deadly bioweapon, then its weights need to be properly secured so they can't be stolen by terrorists interested in using it that way. As capabilities grow further — for example, if testing shows that a model could exfiltrate itself and spread autonomously in the wild — then new measures would need to be put in place to make that impossible, or demonstrate that such a goal can never arise. Nick points out what he sees as the biggest virtues of the RSP approach, and then Rob pushes him on some of the best objections he’s found to RSPs being up to the task of keeping AI safe and beneficial. The two also discuss whether it's essential to eventually hand over operation of responsible scaling policies to external auditors or regulatory bodies, if those policies are going to be able to hold up against the intense commercial pressures that might end up arrayed against them. Learn more and find the full transcript on the 80,000 Hours website: https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/nick-joseph-anthropic-safety-approach-responsible-scaling Chapters: • Cold open (00:00:00) • Rob's intro (00:01:01) • Scaling laws (00:03:50) • Bottlenecks to further progress in making AIs helpful (00:08:23) • Anthropic’s responsible scaling policies (00:14:17) • Pros and cons of the RSP approach for AI safety (00:34:22) • Alternatives to RSPs (00:47:12) • Is an internal audit really the best approach? (00:51:39) • Making promises about things that are currently technically impossible (01:07:58) • Nick’s biggest reservations about the RSP approach (01:16:15) • Communicating “acceptable” risk (01:19:44) • Should Anthropic’s RSP have wider safety buffers? (01:26:41) • Other impacts on society and future work on RSPs (01:34:49) • Working at Anthropic (01:37:19) • Engineering vs research (01:42:00) • AI safety roles at Anthropic (01:49:35) • Should concerned people be willing to take capabilities roles? (01:59:33) • Recent safety work at Anthropic (02:11:29) • Anthropic culture (02:16:19) • Overrated and underrated AI applications (02:23:57) • Rob’s outro (02:28:29) ---- _The 80,000 Hours Podcast_ features unusually in-depth conversations about the world’s most pressing problems and what you can do to solve them.

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